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BamaJoe
AHSFHS Researcher

44 Posts

Posted - 10/06/2019 :  20:16:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I know a lot of you guys know more about it than I do. Do any of you have a projection of the new alignment that comes out in December?

Go Eagles!

TheMUBM
AHSFHS Master Researcher

75 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2019 :  09:13:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No real predictions, but I am interested to see how the competition clause/private school qualifier, whatever you want to call it, handles some teams.

I firmly believe Mars Hill is on their way to their second straight state title appearance (and win probably) and UMS seems unstoppable in 4A. I have heard people speculate that both of these teams could move up two classes as a result. I haven't done enough research to know if this is the case or even possible, so the sideline joes at the games I attend could be blowing smoke but I think it should be interesting.
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bigcdiddy16
Forum Member

30 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2019 :  10:21:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The way this article reads it is not possible to jump two classifications.

https://www.al.com/highschoolsports/article/how-does-competitive-balance-work-answering-10-questions-about-ahsaas-newest-rule/

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TheMUBM
AHSFHS Master Researcher

75 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2019 :  10:34:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It all seems a little convoluted to me. There really isn't anything in the article that says they can't move up multiple classifications or not that I can tell.

But based on the article and how it lays out the the points system I can see where you could deduce that it isn't possible. Of course, my question then is, let's say a school like Mars Hill automatically moves up to 2A with the 1.35 rule then would they move up another class based on their previous football performance? Which from what I am reading in the article, that can happen and that may be where some people are drawing their conclusions.

Edited by - TheMUBM on 10/18/2019 10:35:33
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bigcdiddy16
Forum Member

30 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2019 :  12:06:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The reason I said it is not possible is because Bayside Academy girls won 3 straight volleyball titles. Which means they got the highest amount possible under the points system. But they only moved up 1 classification higher than the rest of the school.
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TheMUBM
AHSFHS Master Researcher

75 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2019 :  14:13:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
According to the AHSAA you're right. http://www.ahsaa.com/Portals/0/PDF's/AHSAA/AHSAA/Re-Classification/2020-22/CBF%20Year%202%20Proposal.pdf?ver=2019-08-01-080022-803

But still no clear cut explanation on the scenario I presented. Which to read this document makes it sound like it could still happen in that scenario if this is the order it is applied.

For Mars Hill, take the 1.35 and see where that lands them. So say it moves them up to 2A, then use the second qualifier and apply the competitive balance rule that would then push them up to 3A. But it seems odd if they are using 1A success to determine a teams standing in 2A.

And don't think I am arguing or trying to prove a point here, I am just confused on how they will apply this.

Upon further viewing the AHSAA document, you pretty much have to make a State Title game to be moved up per the Competitive Balance Rule.

Edited by - TheMUBM on 10/18/2019 14:21:15
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cwak
AHSFHS Superstar Researcher

929 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2019 :  16:35:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dothan will move to 7A absolutely. Everything else is conjecture, but here's my predictions.

will move
Dothan to 7A

most likely to move
Mars Hill to 2A UMS to 5A Madison Academy to 4A St. Paul's to 5A
I personally feel Madison Academy & St. Paul's fit in the classifications they're in but I see the AHSAA moving them because of their public and private displeasures to their last moves.

could move
Cottage Hill to 3A Elberta to 3A Fyffe to 3A St. Luke's to 2A Saint James 4A Susan Moore to 4A Sipsey Valley to 5A
Pleasant Grove to 4A Citronelle to 6A Florence to 6A Albertville to 7A Mountain Brook to 6A

I also could see a lot of region realignment this time to make new matchups

Edited by - cwak on 10/28/2019 16:40:19
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Sloth Nationzz
Starting Member

8 Posts

Posted - 10/29/2019 :  07:48:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Also I?ve heard that Pike Road will be moving either to 5A or 6A. If any of y?all have any other predictions as a whole I?d love to hear them.

Edited by - Sloth Nationzz on 10/29/2019 07:50:21
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Bamajoe34
New Forum Member

19 Posts

Posted - 10/29/2019 :  07:55:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cwak

Dothan will move to 7A absolutely. Everything else is conjecture, but here's my predictions.

will move
Dothan to 7A

most likely to move
Mars Hill to 2A UMS to 5A Madison Academy to 4A St. Paul's to 5A
I personally feel Madison Academy & St. Paul's fit in the classifications they're in but I see the AHSAA moving them because of their public and private displeasures to their last moves.

could move
Cottage Hill to 3A Elberta to 3A Fyffe to 3A St. Luke's to 2A Saint James 4A Susan Moore to 4A Sipsey Valley to 5A
Pleasant Grove to 4A Citronelle to 6A Florence to 6A Albertville to 7A Mountain Brook to 6A

I also could see a lot of region realignment this time to make new matchups

Madison Academy is already 5A and so it St Paul I believe. I think you are absolutely correct. That's where they should be. Madison Academy won our region last year and finished 3rd this year.

Go Eagles!!
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Bamajoe34
New Forum Member

19 Posts

Posted - 10/29/2019 :  08:03:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheMUBM

According to the AHSAA you're right. http://www.ahsaa.com/Portals/0/PDF's/AHSAA/AHSAA/Re-Classification/2020-22/CBF%20Year%202%20Proposal.pdf?ver=2019-08-01-080022-803

But still no clear cut explanation on the scenario I presented. Which to read this document makes it sound like it could still happen in that scenario if this is the order it is applied.

For Mars Hill, take the 1.35 and see where that lands them. So say it moves them up to 2A, then use the second qualifier and apply the competitive balance rule that would then push them up to 3A. But it seems odd if they are using 1A success to determine a teams standing in 2A.

And don't think I am arguing or trying to prove a point here, I am just confused on how they will apply this.

Upon further viewing the AHSAA document, you pretty much have to make a State Title game to be moved up per the Competitive Balance Rule.

They won it last year and from what I heard they are a better team this year so it is possible for them to have two state championships in 1A by December. Not sure how that impacts the multipliers but I think it should. Full disclosure, I think we should have a public school league and a private school league. Particularly for the schools that recruit. Not sure how to get to the right answer but I don't think the current model is adequate. Mars Hill monkey stomped Brooks who finished 2nd in their region in 4A. Now poor ole Woodville has to play them in the first round. Woodville is dressing out about 20 kids and some of them are 8th graders. Their reward for making the playoffs is to get destroyed by Mars Hill who has a team that can compete with anyone in 4A and possibly 5A.

Go Eagles!!
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UNA2004
Starting Member

5 Posts

Posted - 10/29/2019 :  12:49:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
[quote]Originally posted by UNA2004

Will teams drop because of there lack of being able to compete in there current class? I mean look at the losing streaks that Barbour County, Columbia, Calhoun and Brindlee Mountain Have... Will they get dropped because of the competitive Balance?



Go Lions
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TheMUBM
AHSFHS Master Researcher

75 Posts

Posted - 10/29/2019 :  12:59:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Theoretically that could happen. On the face of it, the answer is no for a public school.

For instance say team A is really bad and has been for quite some time. This team has been, say 3A for a number of years. The new enrollment numbers are gotten and it shows them as a 3A again, but near the bottom.

Theoretically if a few private schools are in 2A and end up moving up only because the competitive balance rule (not the 1.5 qualifier), that could force a smaller 3a down a class.

Private schools are the only ones directly effected by the CBF, and it could cause them to move up and down. But public schools can be effected indirectly.


Edited by - TheMUBM on 10/29/2019 13:00:02
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cwak
AHSFHS Superstar Researcher

929 Posts

Posted - 10/29/2019 :  17:16:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Expanding competitive balance is an interesting thought, and not without precedent. Iowa is looking at implementing competitive balance based on performance across all schools athletics.The problem there is not so much public v. private as urban vs suburban. Inner City schools say they can't compete financially or with the facilities of their more affluent suburban counterparts. An inner city team hasn't beat a team from the suburbs in something like ten years and all the games are blowouts 72-0 even though both have similar class sizes.
https://espn1170am.com/could-iowa-high-school-football-change-its-system/ and
In 2019 with analytics and stats I think competitive balance should be applied to all schools. No system is going to make everyone happy, but there is more that goes into teams being competitive today than student body size. Barbour County, Columbia, Calhoun and Brindlee Mountain students would have better experiences and higher participation if facing similar programs. I've seen Brindlee Mountain play football the past few seasons they would struggle against 1A teams, they struggle to dress 20 in 3A. So moving some teams wouldn't be unfair to me. Now I'm not saying move Fyffe to 7A, but a limit of +/- 2 from the class a school would be in by class size would not be too much.
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dparker
Forum Admin

963 Posts

Posted - 10/29/2019 :  19:32:26  Show Profile  Visit dparker's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I somewhat disagree. I do not think it is fair to punish Fyffe because of what their coach and community have built. Fyffe has done nothing that most of the schools of similar size could accomplish with the right coach and the community getting behind the program.

Does the city of Fyffe somehow magically produce better athletes at a greater rate than any other town of that size? Not likely. Does Maplesville? Does T.R. Miller in Brewton? Did Hazlewood? Does Piedmont? Does Gordo? No likely. Those communities built a program with hard work and the right head football coach. Why punish that?

This world is becoming crazier by the year. Everything does not need to be equal. Disparity is not a bad thing in most aspects of life and especially in sports. Everyone does not deserve a trophy. The rewards should go to those that work hard to earn them.

I can assure you this can not be fixed. Not with the competitive balance rule or the private school multiplier or any other rule. The more the powers that be try to fix it, the more it will get screwed up.

Me.... I love dynasties. I appreciate what Fyffe has done and I have never even been to the town. I appreciate and respect what Hoover has accomplished. I also have no problem with any of the programs that win on a consistent basis.

Dynasties are built starting with the right coach. In high school the right coach will fix 75% of your problems in a couple of years. I can prove that with a bunch of numbers and facts. At most schools with a losing record, there is a team walking the school halls every day that could beat the current football team on the field. The right coach will attract, teach and keep those students on the field and build a successful program.

I do not like the advantage that UMS-Wright, Briarwood, Madison Academy, McGill-Toolen or most private schools have in attracting student athletes. It is a distinct advantage over many public schools. It is a problem. One without a solution that I have ever heard.

Alabama has two choices. Georgia has the same problems as we do with a similar setup where public and private play together. Mississippi separates the two.

All that said, I can assure you the AHSAA will not fix this problem with rules. I wish I had a solution but I do not.





David Parker
Administrator
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TheMUBM
AHSFHS Master Researcher

75 Posts

Posted - 10/29/2019 :  20:37:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I would like to see a private class and a public class but allow the two to play against one another non region if they so liked.
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cwak
AHSFHS Superstar Researcher

929 Posts

Posted - 10/29/2019 :  21:46:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't see it as punishment to move a successful team up. Leagues all over the world have promotion and regulation systems. Its what the AHSAA,and every other state association, has been doing since they created classifications some fifty years ago.

My argument is classification should be determined by program success as well as school size. Recruiting is not just done by private schools,I personally think there's nothing wrong with this, and schools can manipulate their numbers to get or stay in a classification, also not wrong or against AHSAA rules. Parents move their children to successful programs districts to get greater visibility to college scouts. Private schools can just do it directly while public finds other ways.The AHSAA should not split public and private they both do it they should just acknowledge it and find another way.So a class size only model misses the whole picture.

In the grand scheme of things were talking about a handful of schools. Using Fyffe as the example. They would fit in nicely in 3A they already play 3A teams non region, and If they were 3A have for years. This year they would have won their most likely region 7 easily, they beat half of them already, and been undefeated. Look at the real world examples we have, none of the private schools who moved up are exactly struggling in their new homes.

On the other end of the spectrum the have nots of competitive teams. Do so for more factors than enrollment size. Be it resources, poor management, lack of community involvement. Moving programs down would be more representative of where their programs are. When I was talking about competitiveness I'm not necessarily meaning wins and loses Its about getting a chance. More student involvement is never a bad thing, more might play for those teams if the think they might have a chance.

All in all if the goal is not to find some sort of competitive balance then the system should be scrapped, and go back to letting teams play whoever they want and vote for state champions. And after discussing the tie breaker process I'm almost in favor of going at least back to the area days, but I digress. Until that time AHSAA should take holistic approach towards competitive balance all of its member institutions.
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tidefan102
AHSFHS Member

676 Posts

Posted - 10/30/2019 :  08:18:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
David. I agree with you on this issue. To punish a public school because the team is good is ridicules.

Mike Naugher
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cwak
AHSFHS Superstar Researcher

929 Posts

Posted - 10/30/2019 :  15:32:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
just a few things and I'll let it be.

1) Why is it punishment to move a public school but not a private school? If you look at the top 10 and bottom 10 of any classification by size. You're looking at a 40 to 50 student spread thats a 10 to 20 students per class. there's not much difference +/- 1 classification as they are now.

2) successful sports programs public or private do the same things to be successful. Why treat them differently? Either look for competitive balance and apply it equally or just go with class size and move on.
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dparker
Forum Admin

963 Posts

Posted - 10/30/2019 :  15:50:23  Show Profile  Visit dparker's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Cody. Here is the difference between public and private schools. We will look at Mobile for instance but the same is true for any private school near a big city. UMS-Wright, St. Paul's, Mobile Christian, Cottage Hill Christian, Faith Academy and St. Luke's can attract, notice I did not say recruit, students and athletes from a population of over 200,000 people. They have no boundary for their school districts.

Whereas schools like LeFlore, Williamson, Davidson, Murphy, etc must for the most part only enroll students within their district.

It is a huge advantage for the private schools. Is is wrong? It is not for me to say. But think about it. The private schools will attract the better students and athletes in the bigger cities. They have no need to do much recruiting in the cities. The better athletes want to go there and their parents want them to go to the private schools.

Also, Cody I appreciate your comments and input. I have no desire to start an argument with you or anyone. I just want to make sure everyone understands the facts as I know them. I and everyone else appreciates the work you do with the helmets.

thanks




David Parker
Administrator
AHSFHS.org
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cwak
AHSFHS Superstar Researcher

929 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2019 :  18:00:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No worries never saw it as an argument. Just a discussion. It's interesting you're example sounds similar to the experience around here. North Alabama doesn't have the history of private schools that the south does. It's only been recently that private schools have excelled in sports.
In the past it's been typically county to city schools. Programs like Cullman, Guntersville, Fyffe, Hartselle attract top athletes from surrounding communities. It was not uncommon for someone to go through Jr high at Arab show promise and show up in Guntersville by 9th grade. Athletes and their parents will look for the best opportunity to showcase their talent.
Different experiences shaping views.
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TheMUBM
AHSFHS Master Researcher

75 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2019 :  20:17:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Cody, I do take a bit of umbrage with your assertion that in North Alabama private schools haven't excelled. We certainly do not have the dearth of private schools that the South has, but Madison Academy has run roughshod over teams for years, in multiple sports. And while Mars Hill just really got their football program going, they have always been hell with their basketball program. Shoals Christian has also been extremely successful with their baseball program. Decatur Heritage Christian has finally found their footing. If I thought about it longer I could probably come up with more examples, but I am sure you could come up with some that counter mine.

I am not trying to argue with you and please don't take it as such, but the only reason we don't see it that much in our area, is we don't have that many private schools, but your private schools are still largely more successful than your public schools with few exceptions (Deshler, Hazelwood, Courtland, etc.)

I am aware of enough to say, I know I don't have the answer. I'd like to see a private class and a public class but allow them to play one another in the regular season. But private schools definitely have a lot more resources and aren't as limited by the rules as the public schools are. It is just an uneven playing field. And I don't think the AHSAA has it figured out just yet, but I certainly haven't either.

-Chris

Edited by - TheMUBM on 10/31/2019 20:19:11
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